Episode 7: Fellowship? Yay or Nay!

Welcome, everyone.

Because the roots is basically the topic of today's episode. It's basically fellowship, right? And if you can remember, we really just started this podcast, you know, because we had this one great conversation on this Sunday afternoon about faith, and we thought, you know what? I. We wish we put it. We wish there was a mic here and we could just share this conversation with the rest of the world. And I think it's important to get back to that space where it's just, you know, two guys talking, just. Just hanging out. And. Yeah, that's basically what I define fellowship as to be the, you know, the meeting of two or more people who share, say, maybe a common interest or who want to engage in a particular subject matter, whether or not they have the same views on the matter. It's just like an exchanging of experiences and exchanging of points of views just to give context into sort of larger. The larger conversation. And, yeah, I think. I think that's what we're just going to do today and sort of to relate that back to the core essence of Saturday service, which is faith. I think today we. We're going to be asking the question, to church or not to church. All right. And. And that's obviously just in the Christian context, but, you know, to mosque or not to mosque, to attend conferences or not to attend conferences. You know, all of that, basically. What is the importance of fellowshipping in the faith walk? Yeah. So, yeah. What are your thoughts?

Yeah.

One of the central. I mean, I'm just trying to pander.

To the English definition now, is that fellowship is about people coming together with aligned interest. And from a Christian standpoint, which our audience already knows, that's what I defer to. It is coming together to worship God or. Yeah, coming together to worship God mostly in most churches or most Christian religious groups is usually led by somebody or a group of people that are considered teachers or preachers. And often you would also see people coming together to share experiences and all of that.

So that I just want to establish.

Some kind of baseline definitions of fellowship in the secular context and fellowship in the religious context.

But somehow in both definitions, is that.

There'S some kind of shared interest and maybe shared goal.

But to Your point?

The discussion today is, should I go to church or should I not?

And we have seen people on the.

Other side that believe that you're going to church is an evidence of your love for God. You're going to church, it shows that.

You'Re part of the fold.

In fact, they are biblical references that say things like, do not neglect the fellowship of the brethren.

And even in other religions, you see.

That centrality of coming together consistently. It might not be every Sunday or.

Saturday or Wednesday, but there's some kind.

Of coming together of adherents of every faith.

I think fellowship is central.

Coming together is central to that.

But on the flip side, you also find people that say.

It'S not by how much you come together. That defines as spirituality, that says spirituality is individual.

As such, you are the person working.

Out your face with your God or whatever it is you believe in.

And as such, they relegate this communion.

Or this fellowshipping to the second place, but to each individual his own. My take is that fellowship is necessary, is that church is important.

And why, I think so, not just.

Church, again, is that fellowship, let me use the word fellowship so that we're not. It's not a Christian service or whatever.

But I think fellowship is important because it brings you in contact. And it's the same. Even if we want to stay away from religion. Is why AA meets, why Alcoholics Anonymous myth is that we support ourselves. We feed off the experiences of other.

People in helping us chart our own path.

So if I am 10 days sober, I want to see someone who is 100 days sober or 10 years sober. Like I can do it, right? And I also want to see somebody who is one day sober. That reminds me that, dude, 10 days ago I was just like this child. So there is a strength that comes.

From association that I think is important.

That outside it, we can stray. Whether you are Christian or Muslim or Hindu or an alcoholic, if you are isolated in your quest, there is a high tendency to stray. There is a high tendency to fail. But if you are supported within a community of people with shared interests, then there is, you know, there's a higher tendency that one, you're able to even.

Situate your face within context of other people.

You're able to hear stories that improve.

Or just advance you in one way or the other.

But that's. That's just my general overview, but please go ahead because I have other crazy.

Thoughts around this fellowship.

And now I title those discussions Service to our Faith.

Please continue.

How I wanted to come in was sometimes, you know, you made a point about like, oh, I'm 10 days sober, and then there's like a three year sober person, there's a one day sober person to sort of give you a context of both sides.

Sometimes, while that may be helpful, it does also sometimes feel overwhelming and to the point where you start to feel like you are the one that's doing everything wrong, especially depending on where you are. I do think context is important, but I do want to point out that there's a bunch of problems with fellowship, at least in, in some kind of institutionalized setting.

What, what, what problems are there?

Yeah.

Youth church, for instance, because this is sort of like one of my experiences, and you see that everybody's so very, very well. And one of the main themes of the, of the sermon that day is sowing a seed to multiply. And 10,000 people have come with 10,000 testimonies to say, you know, I sold 10 million and I've reaped a billion.

To scrounge a hundred naira to make your way to church. And you're addressed in what beside the rest of everybody else? You very touch at that.

Let me just stay home. Like, it probably tends to overwhelm.

These amazing points and promises for what fellowship is probably supposed to be, it is more in reality. It's, it's, it's, it can be depressing, it can be overwhelming, and it can make people feel a lot more alone than it is supposed to be. I think especially with mega churches, you know, where it's like these people of these certain caliber and these certain ranks.

Not going to name names, but we have like little pockets. Even in that huge church where it's like Sunday school classes, like little classes where people can come together and fellowship in smaller units and in those units, there are complaints about how they, in that unit feel left out of the larger church. And even though, yes, they've come together and they found themselves in that small unit to say, oh, this is a gathering of people who feel left out from the church, who have come to.

But again, it points to the larger problem. And maybe this is not general, maybe this is specifically an institutionalized problem.

But, Demona, let me. Let me challenge you. Let me. Let me challenge you. Is that not. Is that what you're saying? What I hear you say is about, you know, an individual, despite the fellowship, despite the crowd, feeling isolated or alone or, you know, whatever. Isn't that the individual's problem? It's not about the fellowship, is that either you have chosen to feel inferior to other people because they dress better than you, or you have chosen to feel whatever it is you're feeling that makes you feel a sense of isolation, even in this place where everybody seems to be coming together. Isn't that a personal problem? Isn't that something you should deal with as against thinking that, oh, it's because it's a mega judge, that's why I.

Am unseen or whatever it is.

Isn't that your problem?

So I'm going to go into a hypothetical, right?

Things that happen but I've probably not happened to me specifically, is that certain.

The person that's experiencing it. Right. Sometimes in reality, you cannot.

You to feel physically assaulted. Right? Somebody has to probably verbally insult you for you to feel verbally insulted.

The person who feels a certain way doesn't probably have some responsibility in the matter.

Larger fellowships, maybe fellowships in institutions have gotten it wrong, have missed the ball. I've dropped the ball and missed the point of what fellowships are supposed to be. And so what you now have is basically a Sunday party where they do the normal routine thing and nobody's actually bothering to check up on the individuals in the church. And so it's more like, oh, we've all come here and this is what we're gonna do, never minding who is coming.

And I'm not 100% sure that it isn't actually just all for sure, okay? Because I don't know. Histrionics in faith and performance in faith.

But you too, you know, and I.

Want you to be honest with this.

That when someone comes to a new.

Group like a big church and they.

Say, stand up, there are four many people, their first interaction is like, let.

Me not stand up. Because once I stand up like this, this will be on my neck. I don't want anybody to come to my house.

That's there? So it's not about, at times it's not even about the intention of the ushers or the worshipers to say, oh, let's bring you into our food. It is the intention of the individual. Like, eh, you know what, let me.

Just, you know, have a guided relationship with this crew without necessarily, you know.

Dumping or immersing myself into it. So add to your point. Even when smaller groups break away from much larger groups, in those smaller groups, there are times that you still see the same sense of non inclusion, non involvement and isolation. So let's say there's a church of 10,000 people in mosque of 500 people. And maybe the youth or the women or maybe a group think, well, we're not really, we don't really feel, let's come together.

So they break, not break away, but.

They form a sub faction of 10.

Other 10 people or 15 people.

Even among those 10 people or 15 people, some of the things that you are criticizing in the larger group will still reflect. You know what I think? I think there is a human aspect to it, that even when they are just two people, those human aspects come to form. Okay, now it's only just larger because.

You have multiplied that two people by those two people by 5,000, you know.

In a much larger space.

Again, I'm not trying to validate your position, but I'm saying that it's got.

Us good to look at it, to look at it in both ways.

I agree.

It's, it's very, there's more than one side to it.

And I think if you, if you ask somebody, if you take a poll, people generally believe that their position on a matter is, is more valid than the other person's. Obviously we try to be kind and we try to be understanding and tolerant and all of that. And I'm not saying that these larger institutions don't. Obviously you enter a group of, you enter a fellowship and you see somebody that your first impression of them is.

I don't think much of this person. I think that all they're doing is pretending. And then in that same fellowship, you meet another person where you feel like, oh, my God, this person is this nicest person in the world. I currently have that sort of situation.

Well, the last church that I attended, I. I don't particularly dislike the way.

Have the drama in me, because I'm.

Is recognizing everything that they are doing has just drama and that there's nothing genuine.

It may not be true.

And I'm willing to come outside of myself and observe and ask myself, why do you think that? You know, and then pointing out, because.

And then I have a smaller interaction. I have an interaction with one person out of the entire group, and I feel seen, you know, and I feel loved. And I'm like, oh, my God, why isn't this, you know, everywhere? And why isn't this how everybody's doing?

It's. It is, it is.

Be taken into account and should be considered in that sort of space where it's like, oh, I'm. As a pastor, I recognize that maybe some of my congregation or new members may feel like, oh, we're not. Were probably. How do you say, we're probably not taking everybody's quote unquote feelings into account. And I'm not like, trying to say, oh, boohoo, everybody is feeling feelings and all of that, you know, but it's just people do have first impressions, and you want to be able to do your best to meet people, to be able to assuage those doubts.

You know, there are people who come to your church and think, ah, so you're using everybody's offering for. To, you know, to buy private jets. Or you, you know, you come to a church and then they'll be like, oh, if you don't have. If you don't have cash, don't worry. We have accounts that you can send your offering to.

Some. Somebody's first impression might be like, ah, okay, this is one of those churches. You know, I think there should be a lot more in the way of I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't know what the answer is, but something that tells.

Of the fellowship that, hey, I actually genuinely see you and I genuinely care.

But is that possible? Is that possible? Because we come to these groups with bias. We come to these groups with our bias. And I'm standing up for religious groups here in general, that we come to each group with a bias, and the things we see are constantly colored by our bias. That if my bias is that churches.

Mosques, they are always pandering to rich.

People, and I come in first day.

Maybe second day of worship on Friday, they say.

Recognize the commissioner, or we want to recognize the governor in our midst, immediately my bias picks up.

Like, see, see, I said that it.

May necessarily not mean that they are pandering, okay? It just means interpreting their actions as pandering. So in the same vein that we want to criticize, don't get me wrong, groups have issues. Again, I'm using group, not necessarily church. Any group that comprise of more than one human. If I one human has issues that.

Are inside conflict, that are inside them as an individual, not to talk of 100 or 1,000, right?

So anywhere they are human beings, they will always complexity. There's bias, there's agenda, There are all sorts of things. And in groups, it is only more prominent. For instance, you'll find out that one of the issues I have most with groups is that many times groups form and organically evolve to push out dissent, push out dissenting voices gradually, in a very subtle way, until everybody appears to.

Be speaking the same language.

Remember, we are a group because we have shared interests. And anyone that doesn't seem to have shared our interest, we kind of push away to the periphery, to the point where most of us in the group.

Are speaking the same language. Now, the problem with that is if.

The premise of our group is falsehood or whatever it is, we will all be roiling, you know, just rolling in that mode and happy that that's where we are. That at times it takes someone else coming from outside to say, ah, what exactly is happening in this? So at times, the inability of a group to embrace descent makes it so monolithic that all of the things they are doing within that group that doesn't.

Necessarily align or that.

That are opposed to even their objectives, they may not see it's just like.

A husband and wife, that they are.

Both bigoted, bitter people. They will be in their shared, shared misery. You see them pushing in the same.

Direction, what they are doing so Groups.

Have issues, individuals have issues. And I feel it's unfortunate that many times we then either take the feelings of these individuals or the feelings of the group and we sort of do some kind of permutation. You know, we just translate it to.

The feeling of the faith.

Do you get me? So, because I've come to them to Demola Nigeria Limited mosque or temple, and we have, you know, uncovered a scandal that Demola is corrupt because he chopped temple money. Then this.

I'm not a corrupt public service officer. I stand for justice.

So you are campaigning on this service platform. It is what we are talking about.

Everybody.

This is exactly what we are talking about.

Yeah, but seriously, on a serious view.

Is that while the faith comprises the groups or the adherents to the faith, I think as individuals we must have a clear distinction between the objectives of the faith and the actions of the.

Groups or the individuals that profess it equally as we do.

And I think we should also cut.

Ourselves some slack as human beings.

See, human beings are invaluable no matter how highly placed they are, no matter how reverged they are. We need to understand that being human itself is a limitation such that when.

A member of the group or a.

Group within the face, they exhibit behaviors.

That we think are incorrect, consistent with.

The ideals of the faith. We shouldn't necessarily construe it as a feeling of the faith. I want to believe that there are.

More adherents that have pushed believers in that faith away from that faith than there are non adherents. Do you get that logic? I'm trying to speak in a general.

Thing, not necessarily Christian or Muslim, but.

That they are more adherents making unbelievers of other adherents than non adherents achieving the same thing.

Well.

Because this one, this one is.

Someone I'm passionate about.

I think.

Your point about all groups have problems.

Of values that they subscribe to to make sure that every member that says, oh, I want to join this party will sort of maybe, I don't know, take an oath or something to the point where you know that if I see this party's logo, I know the values that I am voting for. So is this political party Running on sustainable development, you know, education, you know, climate change prevention. Yeah, all of that. Like, what are these values? What are the. What are these parties?

Ideologies.

Yeah.

Yeah, ideologies, exactly.

Top to bottom, you know that they are all the same or they have all the same values as opposed to.

Think, a lot easier for the debates to.

But isn't a faith or religious organization. Aren't faith or religious organizations premised on some values or beliefs that are unique to them?

And people have agendas and agendas change. That, I think, is the problem.

But isn't that the same thing for political or any other group, that there is always that subtext? You know, human beings are funny, what you say and what you think. There can be a huge gap between what you profess and what you believe. And we cannot come together and say, oh, well, we subscribe to the same ideology, but inside us we really don't. And isn't that the complication that even if on paper the church has the ideology or a mosque or, you know, Islam is a. Islam is a. Is a religion of peace. That's an ideology. But then there are in quote, people that say we are Muslims but are belligerent. How do you reconcile that? Or they say, Christian Christianity is a religion of love. And some of the meanest mofos you have ever seen.

Will say that we are Christians.

And you're like, what the.

That's the complication. So this person is wicked because he's from a certain doctrine. Like, how. So that is not.

I don't think.

I don't think it's a failure of ideology. I would believe that on the face of it, most religions have a stance or most faiths have a stand on certain things.

Oh, this is what you believe.

Or even if it's, you know, like Scientology, they will still have what their initial founder you set out to achieve and what all of their parents are kind of following. But how their actions differ or align with that really at individual level is for me, it is the challenge. And it's crazier because people can always explain things and justify everything. A mega thought that has $1 billion.

In his account and doesn't give Shishi.

Will Tell you a reason why you.

Are supposed to be giving them giving out. You'll find a reason.

A church that is giving out everything and doesn't have something.

We also have his reason to say this is why we want to talk.

See, it's all just nuance and nuanced and complex because of human beings. I wish they were alien churches or like animal groupings, but even that I don't know.

On some kind of marketing strategy or campaign.

Of the most stressful things that anybody can do with their lives is marketing. Especially if you are marketing with the view to convert into like customers like in terms of like, like immediately. Because it's like as much as you can control your imputes to a degree, you cannot predict human behavior. The studies will show, but a lot of time will not, it will not.

A group might review its entire modus operandi and you know, the members of the group will still be the same shitty people or they might change for like 5 seconds and then they won't change again.

And I don't know how the operations of AA meetings work but you know, I am, I'm 10 days sober and then I fall back and then I'm zero days sober or I'm like three years sober and then I fall back and you know, yeah, it's a case to case thing. It's not that the AA meetings are not if are not supposed to be theoretically effective. It's just human behavior is that one varying variable that just always, just always throws you for a loop. And you're like, well, are we supposed to always be reviewing our, our standards or our ideologies because, because human beings are doing the same thing but they are doing different things. And you know, I think you are right.

I've told you that even when you fellowship with yourself. Let me give you one classic fellowship with yourself dilemma.

You wake up one morning after a bit, you know, eating two buckets of.

KFC yesterday night and you are fellowshipping with yourself. And yourself is telling you guy, the amount of calories you consume yesterday night, it wouldn't drop you from this 250 kilo that you have. But even Though your ideology or, you.

Know, your target is that I want to lose weight. And then that money, you say, well, for all of my sins yesterday day.

I would just try and fast today.

And alas, you step out of your house by 10 o' clock and you see an ice cream truck and the conflict begins that, oh man, let me just buy one.

And you buy just one.

Exactly, I will see this ice cream truck again. By the end of the day, you have eaten one ice cream, two racks of ribs, you know, you've eaten 25.

Times that day and your bath is.

So I want to realize even as.

An individual, you know, reaching a consensus, sticking to an ideology is challenging.

But does this obviate the fact that.

Group support is important?

I mean, at the end of the day, we are social animals. I don't think human beings were meant, designed, built, created, whatever it is you.

Believe on the creation story side, I don't think human beings are intended to be isolated. So we are still group animals that.

Feed off the group, that feels more secure within the group than outside it, and to whom more advantage accrues. Staying with the group has more advantages like the aggregate, in my opinion, than being isolated. So I don't know whether I will.

Be able to erase group situations.

Of course there are times you want.

To be alone and all that, but groups are still important.

More so in faith, where there are many unanswered questions, where things are not as tangible. Do you get where, you know it's all not always black and white. Right, but so my point being that whatever the feelings are, I don't think.

It supersedes the advantages of the group.

I mean, I have had my Christian.

Faith boldened by my interaction with others.

I used to have a friend who.

Was an addict and I saw his, I was like phone to witness to his journey, coping with addiction, fighting addiction with faith, like with his Christian faith. And I think that did a lot more for me in terms of embracing the gospel and embracing faith than any preacher could have told me from a pulpit. Because I was there with him on that journey and I knew the mountains he overcame by just staying close to the precepts of his faith as a Christian. So I would say that, I mean, just as we round up that.

Fellow.

To church or not to church, I will say to church because, okay, obvious, obvious advantages that being within the fellowship of like minds brings to our faith. Now I underscore the word like mind. I still want to believe that despite.

The fact that everybody professes in doing or Satanism or Taoism.

They might not all be like mind in their understanding of this faith or their understanding.

So I think whatever you consider to.

Be like mind is good to be within that group.

But there is more reversal to that.

For me is that don't be so.

Like minded as to abhor dissent or run away from descent. Otherwise you'll be so like minded in your BS or so like minded in you know, your flaws that you, none.

Of you, you're unable to see when you are deviating or when you are moving away from whatever the objective is. I think this is just my own general, my own guiding principles. It will be good to know.

I mean I good to hear yours.

And also know what other people think on this church or not to church matter.

Yeah church being a filler word for whatever kind of fellowship engage in. We have a comment section on the anchor on Spotify pages if you are listening on either. But yeah, you can catch this podcast on Google podcasts as well.

To just say my own closing final thoughts.

Of where I am currently in my own faith journey. I think I'm doing well enough in terms of the other aspects of the faith journey apart, you know, minus the fellowship. Yeah. I think for me I would rather just like so, so ever since I was little I had this idea of how like a church should be. Like it should be like a small room with like a bunch of couches everywhere and maybe food everywhere as well. And then people are just socializing. But the main topic of discussion or the central topic to keep in mind is whoever you you guys believe in.

And then you can talk about it a variety of subjects on the matter. And then when two people are probably finding like, oh, we can't agree on this or you know, we both don't understand what we are saying to each other, then you could call the third person and say, hey, what's up? How far? What what are your thoughts? And this and this. And so in the, you know, in the. By the definition of fellowship, I do think that there needs to be some kind of cutting down and maybe having smaller because they're easier to manage in a way having smaller fellowship units, which is, you know what me I'm looking for. One of the reasons why I enjoy doing Saturday service is, is it's a smaller, easier to manage fellowship, you know, as opposed to, as opposed to a larger congregation, as it were. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd really like to see what people or what.

Hear what people think, you know, maybe at some level is to each his own.

Yeah.

All you care.

Yeah.

I don't think it's one way to anything. Yeah. So it might come down to what individuals are comfortable with and how. How their choices advance their faith or not. But it's been a good conversation. It is good being in the room with you again.

And we will not vote for you.

In 2027, because this platform is not a political platform. So everybody listening. Do not vote for this guy.

Thank you.

Bye.